The Launchpad: Redefining Achievement Outside the Office Walls with Grace Zeigler

When Grace was handed her layoff notice, she faced a crossroads that would redefine her entire career trajectory. Her story unfolds in our latest episode, where she shares how the seeds of entrepreneurship were sown in the aftermath of corporate upheaval. 

We explore how her journey from corporate castaway to thriving independent consultant is a beacon for anyone feeling the tremors of professional instability.

Stepping away from the corporate rat race, we engage in a heartfelt conversation about what success truly means. We break down the societal constructs that often confine us to a narrow view of achievement, discussing instead a life where personal joy and contentment are the true measures of a job well done. It's about crafting a career that doesn't overshadow our existence but enhances it, allowing space for those cherished midday walks and the freedom to be present for the ones we love.

As we wrap up our dialogue,  Grace and I share personal experiences of growth and the profound impact of choosing a path lined with purpose and passion. For anyone standing at a career crossroads or looking to infuse their work with deep-seated values, this episode is an empowering guide, offering a glimpse into the vibrant world of independent work and the joy it can bring.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:52

All right, everybody. As you just heard, this is another episode of the Modern Independent. I'm your host, jan Olmacy, the head of community here at Indie Collective, and today I'm sitting down with Grace. As an accomplished strategic leader with over a decade of experience, she has a proven record of maximizing returns on investment in people by leading strategic initiatives in learning and development, employee engagement, diversity, equity and inclusion. She has expertise in developing new L&D departments, designing learning-centric programs and leveraging data analytics to engage, upskill and empower exceptional talent. I'm super excited for this conversation today because, as all of you listening know, that is a large part of our mission here at Indie Collective is empowering people, and so, grace, I'm super, super grateful that you were willing to take the time to sit down with me and welcome to the Modern Independent.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Yeah, I'm so glad that you allowed me to come and join the podcast. It's lovely to have a chance to talk with you again. I always enjoy our conversation, thank, you.

Speaker 1: 1:56

Thank you always enjoy our conversation. Thank you, thank you so much. Yeah, so just a general jumping off, point right A, you are a fall of 23 graduate Yep Fall of 23.

Speaker 2: 2:10

What a day, what a time, what a cohort.

Speaker 1: 2:14

That was a really, really fun cohort. Not that if you're listening to this and you were in other cohorts secrets out. Every cohort is my favorite cohort, but no, I really genuinely think that that group of people was super, super special and seeing all of your energy as you kind of came together was really, really awesome. And, to your point, I love the fact that we were able to have multiple office hours throughout the course of the session and stuff. So I know a lot about your backstory. But for those that are listening, what was kind of your entrance into independent work or what was that drive that told you maybe I should start to do my own thing? How did you end up there?

Speaker 2: 2:58

Yeah, it's so funny. Unlike many independent leaders and those that run their own businesses, I was dragged into independence kicking and screaming. For those that have heard Sam's story, I was in a very similar boat, I would say. One of the many casualties of the great startup layoff of 2023 seems to be continuing into 2024.

Speaker 2: 3:18

I took it hard for many folks in that space. You had worked for ages and you did all the things that supposedly checked you off to run and build a career, and suddenly it wasn't moving in the way that you wanted, and so I had an opportunity to reflect. I traveled, I thought about what I did and then I thought, well, I could help people do this myself. I know enough now to do it myself. And so I started small. Someone needed some help with HR and I said, oh well, I know how to do that. And then that went well, enough that they went cool. So can we keep doing that? And how do I pay you more often? And I was like, oh well, that feels like a business now, doesn't it? And so here we are and I will say five, six clients later, after my very first kickoff, brand new business didn't have an LLC from 2023 fall. Maybe I made for this, even though I really, really for my whole career, did not want to do it yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1: 4:20

I remember that being one of the original conversations that we had at like the very beginning of the indie cohort and stuff.

Speaker 1: 4:26

I think it was right after our designing for independence week um you know, and you had entered this headspace where you're like, wow, I actually need to design around this now. Uh, whether I want to or not, I'm being almost pulled in that direction, like I'm not having to push, I'm being pulled, and that's one thing I actually would love to. Maybe, you know, just kind of sit in that thought for a second and have you elaborate on maybe what that felt like, because I think so many people believe that entrepreneurship has to be this, you know calling from your soul.

Speaker 1: 5:02

I really empathize with that journey because you know I'm coming from the nursing and clinical psych background. Like I had a very stable career at the hospital, you know, on track to get promoted to nurse manager. I was in the military and all that other stuff and then, for whatever reason, people wanted to keep buying websites off of me and then it was ads and then it was all this other kind of stuff. I'm like shit, like I have to start a company.

Speaker 2: 5:23

It's basically it.

Speaker 1: 5:23

Yeah, I had to take a choice one way or the other and I ended up leaning in that direction. So there's um I forget who told me this, it was another indie that said this phrase. That has always really stuck in my mind, and it's the balance between seeking opportunity and seizing opportunity. That's in front of you how sometimes, when we get so caught up trying to seek opportunity, we have blinders on and we refuse to kind of acknowledge what's right in front of us, versus constantly trying to keep an open mind space. And to your point, I think you said it really really well acknowledging Ooh, I have enough knowledge at this point that I could seize this opportunity and then really kind of lean into it. So, what, let's talk about it. Yeah, what, what I don't want to say superpowers, cause maybe that's kind of like a little bit too deep, but you know, if you were being drug into it kicking and screaming what?

Speaker 2: 6:21

dragged you in. What dragged you in? You know what?

Speaker 1: 6:24

what was that feeling that kept going like, oh, this is super uncomfortable, but I'm going to keep doing it anyway.

Speaker 2: 6:29

Yeah, yeah, and that's a really important thing. I think of anything that I would love to impart to those that are kind of thinking about this and like, oh gosh, can I? And I think maybe, but it's only been once. Is it enough to do my whole life around? What I found was, in that balance of seek and be open to because I was seeking so hard for something full time I was much more open to the process of entrepreneurship, of having good conversations, of having honest relationship building conversations, of talking to people about their problems, of understanding where their businesses are going, because for them it was like well, I'm just here to help. I have things that I know I can bring. You need things like templates and a generalized plan and some presentations that sing and a message that matters for your business. I know how to make that, so can I help you. And people were so excited to have me help that I found, even as I was seeking so hard to find my next climb, a corporate ladder that wasn't, frankly, going nearly as well as just having a conversation with somebody and saying I think you need this and I think I can give it to you. Can we work this out and I help you do it. It solved so many problems for the people I was talking with that they just kept coming and I got to a point where I quite literally had too many clients. And it is entirely network-based, conversation-based, and having these moments where I'm just being open and honest and, in fact, leaning more into my authenticity than I ever did in a corporate space, and it seems that the universe agrees with me. So I'm going to keep doing it. For the time being, I find it to be.

Speaker 2: 8:32

I have found a lot of joy in it when I thought it would be impossible, which is such a funny thing to say for corporate knowledge workers. Right, like you really do. You have had your system. You finish your grades, you go to the military or to the training program or to the grad program. There is a set of things to do and it's important to remember.

Speaker 2: 8:54

All of those sets of things to do came out of somebody else's head and you are just as capable of having a set of things to do that people follow, that they find joy in, that. They find careers and hope and opportunities to grow in as anybody else. They all started as businesses somehow, right, whether they're northwestern or a taco shop. They started as a business. So, yeah, that process is not as inaccessible as you think it is and I think if I could have people recognize that it doesn't take tossing out all of your life and never sleeping again and hustling and knocking on doors. When you gotta do a little bit of that, you gotta hustle, but like you can have a great life and still do work that is entirely fulfilling and it's the work that you want to do yeah, yeah, that takes my headspace two different places and I, I think, one of them.

Speaker 1: 10:26

I want to say it's a Steve Jobs quote, I'm not 100% sure, but that the moment that you gain freedom inside of entrepreneurship is when you look around the world and realize that it was designed by somebody no smarter than you, and I forget where I read that. It might have been in one of the biography books that I you know, I'm obsessed with reading biographies of people like that and I remember hearing that and being like, oh shit, that's right. You know, somebody started out as a kid and went to school and did all this other stuff. I had the privilege growing up of knowing Dr Forrest Byrd personally, the gentleman that invented the ventilator, and I remember, like sitting around our dinner table at our house as a kid and he would always say he was like I am a victim and a vessel of fate, time and circumstance.

Speaker 1: 11:23

I didn't choose to be born into a family where my father was an engineer for the Ford Motor Company and knew Henry Ford. He's like I didn't, you know, choose to be drafted into World War II and you know, yes, I got put into that position and then became a pilot and all this other kind of stuff. But like, sometimes there's things that life just imposes on you and then you have to kind of navigate them. And then the second half of that is more like an indie, collective, specific thing, which is our three L's right the living, lifestyle and loving relationships and you just kind of hit on that there at the end, which I am. It's one of the most passionate points that I have about coming into the program, because I find that so many of us, myself included before I entered the program was I don't know if indoctrinated is a very strong word, but you know, maybe the frame that I had in my mind had been facilitated by school and corporate America and you know, everything else that.

Speaker 1: 12:21

Here's the sandbox that you're allowed to play in. Here's your rule set. Here's the sandbox that you're allowed to play in. Here's your rule set. Here's the checklist Check to yours. You just said earlier check these things off, you'll be good. Everything goes on. And then you realize, oh, that's somebody else's checklist is imposing on me. And when I got into those three L's I was like, oh wait, I can actually build my life around actually having room for a lifestyle and loving relationships in my life. How did those three L's hit you when you initially came into the program?

Speaker 2: 12:51

It was a huge piece of the program in that, like, I'm familiar with the idea of job crafting, right. So this is kind of a new way of really, within the corporate space, thinking through your purpose crafting the job with just the things you want, that you're really really good at. That stand out right. People are starting to think about that because you're often asked in any sort of business to wear like approximately 47 different hats at any given time, and so people are starting to get with this idea of like oh, I could craft within this corporate structure the kind of day-to-day like 70 to 80% of your life is spent at work, day-to-day. That would maybe make me a little bit more pleased with my day-to-day. The thing that was so revolutionary about indie was why did you impose walls within the things that would make your day-to-day better? It doesn't have to be within the corporate set of things, or even the startup set of things or whatever hot new industry is going to make you a whole bunch of money, but I swear it's not going to be like working every day because you were living your dream, like there's always that sell. But the idea is and I think it's really been a bit of a journey for me is that in that path there are markers of success, and I started to internalize those markers of success as the ones that were most important to me on my own journey. And they aren't. I can't tell you how many C-suites I've worked with and how many leaders I've heard, or how many even entrepreneurs I've worked with, and some of those people are just not my people. I don't want to go fight and scrape for VC money by backstabbing my folks to get my latest product off the ground. I want to go on trips with the people I love. I want to be able to be there for them when they have a tragedy in their life. I don't want to have to go oh, I'm sorry, it's work. I can't be there for your baby or the death of your parent or the whatever. And I want to have enough money to be able to help them as I need. And what that doesn't mean is that I got a big C-suite and a corner office and I'm on planes all the time and maybe I have a co-cabin.

Speaker 2: 15:09

Looking at you consultants Like that doesn't mean that's not success. That doesn't have to be what success has to be. And as soon as I was in the position where I had to free my mind from the idea that success is only these things. I'd actually think about what does success feel like for me, like if I don't have to compare it. I mean, you know, most folk are a little bit type A. No one really loves losing. If you're winning, who are you competing against? If it's not yourself, like what's the point? And so once you kind of have that moment, you go actually, I know I'm supposed to strive, I know I continue to want to learn and grow, but is it money, is it power, is it prestige, or is it the people and places and work that I love?

Speaker 1: 16:01

I don't even know what that profound.

Speaker 2: 16:03

I love that I was going so many different directions right now, as I always do when we have conversations.

Speaker 1: 16:08

But I think what you're really tapping on for me and what I've consistently heard from people, especially as they get, you know, two years out, three years out from their indie graduation period and their businesses are humming and they're not having to work as hard for referrals Because, to your point, there is this phase. You know, no matter what you do or what you start, whenever that there's initial part, that is just a grind. You know, it's yep, learning all the templates, it's making sure all of your like you have logistical stuff in place, legal stuff's taken care of. You know, you, maybe you have to stay up and go time. Taxes, yeah, there's all of this. I was just I spent three hours doing taxes yesterday with my bookkeeper. Like there's just word, stuff that happens right, um.

Speaker 1: 16:54

But I've also had conversations with those people that are two, three years out. A lot of that stuff gets taken off the plate and then they look at their life and that now they're starting to get questions from their friends where they're like why are you working all the time? And I will get into office hours and, you know, have coaching sessions with people and say, well, do you feel like you're working all the time? And they're like no, I don't feel like I'm working all the time and I'm like well then, why are you allowing their perception of your life to make you feel bad about working all the time?

Speaker 1: 17:25

quote unquote when your life is so in alignment that it doesn't feel like that. Yes, you know.

Speaker 2: 17:35

And for those people that are asking that to your point, know um, and for those people that are asking that to your point, to your point, those people are asking that it is a reflection on their lives. It is a reflection on their life and that is really hard when you're first starting out on this thing that maybe not even your family thinks is a great idea. Maybe not even your like significant other is like well, at least one of us has a job. Like you know, you might get that kind of feedback. But as you think about, do you wake up terrified of monday morning. Right, do you find yourself on friday going, oh, just three more hours and I'm done with these people. Or are you going, I'm going to get some stuff knocked out, I'm really excited to get this thing done. And then on Monday we're going to get this done and, man, when I get a chance to talk to this person, I'm going to tell them this thing that's going to change their world.

Speaker 2: 18:27

If you're having that experience, then you're having better work than you were doing before.

Speaker 2: 18:33

Yeah, yep, if that's happening, you're winning at work, if there's winning to be had, like you're finding fulfillment in the ways that you do and the other thing that I think is so different is that, like, especially for those that are making that transition from like a real, like I was dyed in the wool deep in the corp, uh, deep, deep in the corp um, corporate kind of experience you don't always work a nine to five or an eight to five or a eight to eight or whatever it is right.

Speaker 2: 19:06

You were gonna have those days where you were like in it deep and then you're gonna have a random thursday where you're like I'm gonna take a walk and sit outside and think about what I want to say about myself on my website. Both of those are working, but in a formalized business they would consider that just time off, and most people are spending their time off doing that work anyway, on top of their nine to five. Yep, think of the true time that you actually spend working and think of the time that you have to now. Think of ideas of of exciting changes, of ways to grow that you would not have had within the big machine system and, like all of that counts as forward progress.

Speaker 1: 19:51

I think jazz joseph does a really great job of conveying this. She's an indie collective speaker, kind of like a CRM expert and sales enablement expert, but she put out a LinkedIn post a while ago that really hit home with me and it was a picture of her and her friend having brunch and she said something along the lines of jazz I'm totally paraphrasing this, so don't hold me to it but something along the lines of I can't believe this counts as work, because she framed it in a way where it's like me investing in my social health, me investing in my balance as an individual, me spending time with friends who are also in the entrepreneurial space and holding that space for each other. You know, on the back end of that, a lot of those relationships are those. You know we we call them our army of advocates at Indie.

Speaker 1: 20:47

Collective but a lot of those people make it onto your quote unquote list of 200, right, they are people now that you're having these regular chats with and you get to count, like even today, me and you getting the chance to dive into leadership and development and you know all of these ideas around the pains and positives of building into your business. It's probably a conversation that we would have gladly had without being on the podcast, but now we get to count it as work because we have mics turned on.

Speaker 2: 21:15

Nailed it way to get a gold star today, jan john god I keep saying jan it's all good. I'm one of these days I am literally reading it off the screen it's all right.

Speaker 1: 21:28

I still calls me jan every now and then in his presentations, and I've known that dude for like four years now.

Speaker 2: 21:32

So All right. Well, I feel like I got a mini pass.

Speaker 2: 21:36

But, yes, no, I hear you. You know this process has been. It is transformative, and I think that's something also to not get rid of in this. A lot of folks think, okay, I'm going to start a business and the business is going to run just like Microsoft. Nah, man, that's not. I'm going gonna start a business, we're gonna be home depot in two years. No, like, what are you talking about? You wouldn't. You wouldn't even hold yourself to that standard, right like you, you wouldn't hold your best friend to that standard. So why are you out here going? Oh well, I don't have a three layered career page for the virtual assistant. I need to have that does like. Yes, there's some core things for your business, but I think one of the things that was so transformative for me was to realize that, like, a business can run on a heck of a lot less than you think that it needs.

Speaker 1: 22:32

It's actually wild how little you need once you actually get something. You got some basic Google sheet knowledge and you can figure out how to write some stuff. I think getting past the imposter syndrome and the willingness to actually engage with people is one of the biggest obstacles. The tech and the writing or content and other stuff like that Learnable not like crazy, crazy high cost or anything like that, but just getting yourself to a point where you're willing to put yourself out. There is such a huge block I think.

Speaker 2: 23:06

Yeah, and I think too, with it as well is like you also don't have to be the hottest content creator on the block that runs your whole industry. There's a lot of people that want that. There are a whole bunch of folks that are like I am going to climb that mountain. It is really important, I think, for folks to recognize and I'm happy to share my own story here. I posted once about opening this idea of doing this podcast.

Speaker 2: 23:30

I've been on a couple other podcasts, but I focused on having meaningful conversations with folks that I knew needed help, which has made it so. Now I feel like I have something that is worthwhile to say, or not worthwhile, but at least that I feel comfortable posting or talking about or sharing. Where it isn't. I need to hit my content number for this month, like you do have to do a little bit of that, but once you're at a point where you have settled in the idea that this is a part that is important to me, this work is important to me and I have something meaningful to say about it, that's what flows. It really does flow because you have something to say and often, at least in the indie process, you have a lot of people like but I don't have a content machine or a website or a branded set of powerpoints, or like a cool logo. Man ford didn't.

Speaker 2: 24:24

For how long right it was a cursive word in a bubble like lower your ideas and standards to get started, because doing, going to do is going to teach you so much from actually trying it rather than to continuing to talk about it for years and years and years at brunch and at the bar and at restaurants or in the water cooler with your friends, but hating your job every day and waiting for five o'clock to roll around.

Speaker 1: 24:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually I think that it's almost addicting to keep yourself in that phase because it's so easy to get massive amounts of positive reinforcement from people If you're like, oh, like I'm going to do this and like this is the thing that I have and I have this idea for this, and people are like, wow, you're such an out of the box thinker, like you're really doing this, all this other kind of stuff, and you know, if you don't start it, you can continue to go back to those people and have a conversation about the next thing that you're thinking of and probably continue to get some of that positive reinforcement back. But there's nothing quite like going out and just kind of starting stuff and getting things moving, getting the ball rolling To your point. Experience is such an amazing teacher, which actually makes me want to open a can of worms with you, because you know, being inside of the leadership and development space and then myself, coming from the like, that's what I did in the military the last three years of my career was leadership and development trainings and all that other type of stuff. So we've had conversations around that in the past about you know what it means to actually set up a structure that empowers people over a period of time right, and it keeps them with the right types of stuff as an entrepreneur, right.

Speaker 1: 26:11

One thing that I consistently hear is I left corporate to your point. They, I, they had this checklist. I joined this company because of the values that they had. They had all this other stuff. I'm going to go independent. What would you say to somebody that doesn't think that they need to do the same type of work with themselves as an independent as that company did to set up their values and stuff like that? Like, do you think that you did to set up their values and stuff like that? Like, do you think that you have to set up your own values?

Speaker 2: 26:39

okay, absolutely. Um, I think if you're a solo entrepreneur, you should have some guiding lights. It might not be like your, perfect for like beautiful formulated these are 17 tenants. Don't ever have 17 tenants there's too many tenants but like like you should have a-.

Speaker 1: 26:56

That just made me choke on my Gatorade.

Speaker 2: 26:58

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to murder.

Speaker 1: 26:59

There's no way. 17.

Speaker 2: 27:02

You should have some guiding lights that talk about your experience, and I think one of the big pieces of that are things like they're really simple and so bear with me on them, but like, when I am off, I'm off, like that. That's a guiding tenet for me. It's a part of my life, one to hold you, it's a part of my life, but like, when I'm here, I am here, and when I'm off, I'm off, and then, um, work shouldn't suck like the idea that you should find joy, you should like the people you work with, and while things are hard, it shouldn't be like going to a torturous experience every moment of every day. You, as an adult in the world, can change where you work. If that's working for yourself, if that's working for someone else, if it's some sort of blended combination for the two, you can do that. And then, I guess, finally, be kind and be courageous, and those are my three kind of things. Right? If I start off being kind and then I also act with courage, then I'm going to do things that align with my own personal values. I don't ever want to leave a conversation where I regret that I didn't say the thing that I think needed to be said because I thought that that's what somebody thinks they need to hear. That's not helpful as a business as you're growing. If you have those, then when you're continuing to build your vision, build your mission, you can stay aligned to the work, because what can happen is and I'll be give myself as a transparent example.

Speaker 2: 28:35

I started having these conversations Can you do this HR thing? How about this HR thing? You know there's some other HR things Benefits, comp, dei, money, manuals, parties, ponies I don't do ponies, guys or benefits and comp in real life but you get offered every number of things because people are buying you, they're buying your personality, they're buying your level of competence and they're buying the feeling that you are not going to treat them poorly. That's tied to your own personal values. However, there are things that you used to have to put up within corporate or put up within a company or even put up as a part of someone else's independent startup that you didn't like doing. One of the biggest benefits in the indie experience and any sort of independent business experiences you can either outsource or not do stuff you don't like doing because you run the business and it seems like such a base level thing, but without a mission and vision, you can lose that because money is real hard to say no to, especially if it's coming in, especially if you're looking at the backup of your year and you're like how could I not say yes to this $100,000 contract?

Speaker 2: 29:49

Doing the thing that I hated when I was at corporate. I do know how to do it, but I hated every second of it and I maybe ruined my marriage. Don't do it, and the only way that will stop you in that moment from doing it is keeping an eye on your values, on what is important to your mission, on what is driving you moving forward. Otherwise, you say yes to things that might burn you out from something that could be amazing for the way that you grow as a person. And yeah, have your core guiding lights. It doesn't have to be 17 points, but they will serve you well when you choose, because you will get to a point where you can choose what you want to work on.

Speaker 1: 30:29

Right. Have you heard of the book the Paradox of Choice? I forget.

Speaker 2: 30:35

No, I've heard the title, I thinkadox of Choice, or I forget. No, I've heard the title, I think, but I haven't read it.

Speaker 1: 30:40

So basic, like super summarized, you know idea that's present inside of that book is basically an exploration of different thresholds of choice, Like, if somebody feels like they have no choices, what does that feel like?

Speaker 1: 30:56

How do you navigate it?

Speaker 1: 30:58

What is the optimum range of freedom, I guess, or you know, he kind of debates the topic of what freedom actually means. Is it freedom from something or is it freedom to do something, which is a bucket? But the last piece is really what's hitting home for me is, you know, if you don't have those values in place and let's say you know, for sake of the Indie Collective Conversation, we're using the three L's as our outline, right, so you have a vision for your living, you have a vision for the lifestyle you want that living to generate and you have a vision for the space that your loving relationships need to hold. Those are, and you have sub categories underneath of each of those right, you define that out and you paint that picture forward. What that allows you to do is to not cross this threshold in the paradox of choice, which is people believe that having limitless options or limitless opportunity is where you actually want to live, and that's false when you get to a place where you have limitless options and limitless possibility, it becomes exponentially stressful.

Speaker 1: 31:59

It's so stressful you have no idea what to say yes to, what to say no to. You know, do I have to say yes to this? Because it came through the door and, like all of the things that you just talked about, to the point where he even simplifies it down to where, let's say, you know, 30 years ago, you think about where you wanted to have dinner, you maybe had five options. If you lived in a big city, 15 within walking distance. Right, you can pull up your phone now and DoorDash or Google or whatever, and immediately you're hit with 50 different options of where you could go. And he was like so, multiply that throughout all the decisions we have to make in a day. Instead of having to process 40 things a day just to eat, you're processing hundreds, and so I'm super a big advocate for setting those values to act as like a filter.

Speaker 2: 32:51

Yeah, A set of guidelines A set of guidelines.

Speaker 1: 32:54

A set of guidelines. It doesn't't need to be to your point, it doesn't need to be crazy narrow, especially when you're first starting out. Sometimes you do have to take the job, you know, to close out the back half of the year because you need to meet and stuff. But independence in in my mind, um, I'd be curious. Maybe this is like the next bucket we can explore, like what it being independent actually means, or what independence actually is. Yeah, but it's not just being an entrepreneur. Right? I've seen this over and over again in indie that being independent is the ability to make the choice without being under duress. Right, if I want to go full time, because that's what makes sense in my life right now, I'm going to go full time at this job because I can't pass it up, but I have the skill set and the infrastructure set up that, if I want to go independent, I can also do that. If I am fully independent and I want to make more that year, I can be more aggressive on the sales.

Speaker 1: 33:48

And I can choose to do that, if I don't want to because I want to travel or spend time with family more, or friends, or wherever I wanted to go, I can choose to not pursue those additional deals and stuff.

Speaker 2: 34:05

So what does that kind of line up? I see you nodding your head. Oh, yes, there's a lot of nodding happening here. I would say to kind of speaking, kind of connecting those ideas, that idea of too many choices right, that's often part of the reason people don't start. It's like, well, I'm good at this, I'm good at this and I had all these business ideas and I was going to go be a voice actor and then I was going to start a travel agency and I also do great at yoga and maybe I should learn Pilates and also maybe I should be a data analyst Like you've got 75,000 things that one could be. It's a very kid draw on a page situation.

Speaker 2: 34:36

Remind yourself of how folks in your current boring corporate worlds in my own current boring corporate worlds, like you, love a good corporate world. How did leaders make decisions? It's almost always threes and fives. You do something over five things, too many things. We're not going to decide Anything in this meeting. You know that meeting that you sat in you're like cool. So we're only on object two and it's been 75 minutes and I don't know if anything's going to come out of this. Make your own life like that. Narrow your options a little bit to at least three to five big buckets and then try them and even with that, make it at the end of the year thing. Use that as a learning experience. If it is like I got to take this job because I need this cash, great, take the job for the cash, but then go. Okay, what was good out of this?

Speaker 2: 35:25

So in case this job comes again, I know which part I'm okay with and I know which part I could angle into something new. Then also with the idea of choices, that was a huge part of this indie collective experience for me. I have a vision in my brain about 2024, 2025, grace, as you do, you spend the time to think of your vision. Who does that? You do it for companies all the time. You rarely do it for you. So I spent some time to think about it and I'm very much a make a plan and go and eventually get there. I don't know always how it's going to happen, but I'm going to get there.

Speaker 2: 35:58

My goal was, by the end of 2024, to clear a pretty sizable amount of cash and my other goal was to have three different sources of income. Now I will honestly go ahead and put forward. I'm a very much a glass is shattered on the ground and water's leaking kind of not half full person, like some people have glasses half full. Mine is shattered. You're stepping on the glass. There's definitely water rolling down into your basement, like generally a fairly pessimistic person.

Speaker 2: 36:28

But with that being said, I thought okay, how do I keep myself open to abundance while keeping myself safe Safe personally safe, socially, safe, financially and give myself the opportunity to grow in a way that makes me uncomfortable? That is a little bit weird that I don't know. No one's giving me an A. Am I doing well? Like, where's my A? Whether that's mental, emotional, physical, whatever it is right, like I don't. There's, no, there's no medals for like turn it on your computer in the morning, crank it out some emails. Resident independent consultant. Like you don't. You don't get anything for that other than the satisfaction of starting relationships.

Speaker 2: 37:13

So one of the things that was important to me in this process was thinking about how do I keep myself safe and think that through, and that was how do I diversify my income? I am certainly not opposed to moving into another full-time role, but I want that full-time role to not take all of myself. I had put all of the eggs I've ever had in the income world into the corporate ladder startup, chase down, be on the rocket ship bucket, and what I found is that that was leading to a life that you see on movies and TV for folks that have a midlife crisis and they hate everything because they put everything in one basket and something changed to certainly earn income, but also to meet people, to grow, to learn new skills. That is only going to be available to me if I stop centering my entire life on work and if you're a good business person and you are climbing ladders and you are moving forward.

Speaker 2: 38:25

In any of these systems, one of the biggest things that you're asked to do every day is to center your life on work. I'm working. I'm not great at it yet, but I'm working to make my idea of what my life's work is more expansive than a job description, and that takes time, but I really think you can do it if you open your mind to the possibility that you have something to offer something to, that that's valuable, that people really want to hear about, and that you can help others do better work and make it not suck through the things that you do I'm gonna get really nerdy for a split second.

Speaker 1: 39:10

But there's a part of your brain called the anterior mid-singular cortex. It's like right above the brainstem, kind of smashed instead of like the center portion of your brain, and this is I buy it.

Speaker 1: 39:25

Yeah, I'm dead ass. You can Google it. But that portion of the brain right is being studied heavily right now and what they're finding is it is a piece of the brain that actually can grow within like a 14-day period. Right, it's very, very neuroplastic is the term? Right, that's going around everywhere. But at the base level, all that term means for those of you that maybe have never heard that is that your brain has the capability of growing and rewiring itself, whereas in the past, you know, we believe that the brain was kind of static after the age of 25, and it just kind of degraded. But at this point we realized that it actually continues to grow. It's continuing to try to optimize for the easiest and most efficient use of energy. That's what it's there for, because it uses like 20% or 30% of your body's total energy, which is crazy for that tiny little organ.

Speaker 1: 40:25

But I mean so this piece of the brain right to your point, like when you're pushing yourself and you're, you know doing these things and you're saying, you know, sometimes it feels really uncomfortable to have to do that for yourself for the first time. It feels weird to recenter yourself around something else in life literally within two weeks, like if you can start focusing on. Hey, I know that this feeling is entering my head right now Cause I'm like it's five o'clock and I'm not quite done with work, but one of my values is, when I'm off, I'm off. I'm going to be fully present in this thing. It the first couple of times you try to do that much, like somebody that tries meditation for the first time, you might only be able to last two and a half minutes, 10 minutes before you check your email.

Speaker 1: 41:12

You know it, cause you're working on rewiring it, but if you can stick with it, and fight through that feeling, your brain will literally restructure itself around this new state of being that you're trying to pursue.

Speaker 1: 41:26

So it's not just, you know, values based, or like manifestation, or like sticking with the plan, and law yeah, and like all of these kind of, you know, ethereal types of ideas that are hard to pin down, it's rooted in biology. All of those things are kind of now we're finding out are actually rooted in the way that your brain functions and rewires itself, and I just think that's the coolest thing ever that, like our bodies, will actually physically change shape. Yes to fit to fit the thing that you're trying to bring into existence in the world.

Speaker 2: 42:04

It's I I mean you obviously know firsthand, you were in the, You've done work in medical spaces People literally shift their days and nights to physically reorient their entire life around a new set of tasks that are coming from somebody else who made up a business, and I think it's important for folks to like that seems like a silly thing to say out loud, but, like you, have to have that minute of internalizing. Oh wait, I'm the one that has an opportunity to choose how I shift my patterns of behavior, my thought processes, the way that I engage with the world, to be happier, to be more fulfilled, to do work. That is exciting. I'll tell you my partner he regularly is like now, like you come home and you are so excited to talk about the thing that is like girl, we talk about HR all the time. Can we talk about anything else?

Speaker 2: 43:09

Like anything, like anything else I'm like but it's so cool, people are learning things and this guy got it and they I took the light bulb moment go off and they like came to the vision.

Speaker 2: 43:19

They wrote it down, they figured out their culture. They're completely keyed in. That's glorious, yeah, and I have a chance to do that for people. How could I not enjoy it? And the thing is, much of my career has been spent slowly kind of weeding out the stuff that doesn't do that within the frame that I thought I had to stay in. The thing that's so exciting about an independent is you don't have as much of a frame. Frames pretty wide. You can actually continue to spread that boy out or tighten it in as you need I was just gonna say that, yep, you can expand it and contract it.

Speaker 2: 43:57

That's the beautiful piece and because you get a chance to do that, you have to be very centered on you and I know it feels a little bit navel gazey. You gotta do a little bit of that, because one of the things that is very different and, as you've heard me talk about gold, stars and medals and everything your motivation has to be truly from within you. In a lot of ways, it has to speak to something in the way that you like to move in the world. Maybe not all of you, maybe not at all times. There's definitely sweatpants grace. That's like please let me watch some anime and don't call me. But there's also like put me in front of a crowd of 500 people. I want to teach them something that is going to get them through an incredibly difficult time in their lives can exist, but that core, there's something there about both rest and growth, about connection and not connecting.

Speaker 2: 44:58

That is the reward of the work, not a performance winner. For that you could print yourself some certificates. Maybe I should start doing that, jan. Print myself my own certificates of achievement, nailing it Best Wednesday ever from Grace posted on LinkedIn. Right, because you see this, people are actively sharing their validations all over the time, all over the place all the time I'm speaking here, I'm on this panel and it's really easy to be like well, I don't have any of those validations, I'm not doing. Well, if you think about your core and you think about what is important, that is, getting you where you need to go, then the patterns and the work and the transformation you're taking are reward enough.

Speaker 1: 45:42

In itself.

Speaker 2: 45:43

Yes, I love that so much it's in itself and, more importantly, as that becomes reward in and of itself. And, more importantly, as that becomes reward in and of itself. Weirdly enough, other rewards come out of the blue from nowhere and you're like what, Huh, how? All I did was say you gave me a call because you knew I worked in HR and you had a problem. You just wanted to chat with me about it and that results in a contract and an experience or a conversation that changes somebody's life yeah and if you're in a position to change somebody's life, you are doing something that is worthwhile, whether that's your life or someone else's.

Speaker 1: 46:24

Externally, yeah, I find that, um, it's almost like you have these moments of lucidity in a journey, right, yeah, and lucidity, right, just like very, very much so coming into awareness. Like you know, we sometimes will call it a light bulb moment or war. You know, um, if a great example is, if you've ever been like sitting around a table with a group of friends and then, all of a sudden, like you look up and everybody else is eating, but you just take a look around the table and you're like whoa, you know, you appreciate the situation for what it is.

Speaker 2: 46:54

That's an example of one of those. Exactly so, that's an example of one of those moments, but I love that you pointed it I.

Speaker 1: 47:01

I'm going to tie it back to something you said at the very beginning of the conversation, cause I think this is a great way to maybe, you know, kind of let you have the floor and wrap up this episode.

Speaker 1: 47:08

But you said something at the beginning that really stuck with me throughout this entire conversation, which was when I can wake up, or when I can go into the weekend on a Friday, not dreading my Monday, and I can wake up on Monday excited to face the challenges that I'm going to have to face that week. You didn't say I'm excited to wake up on Monday to have an easy week ahead of me, right? No, you're like, I'm excited to wake up on Monday to solve these problems that I'm passionate about solving. And now you know, we ended up in this conversation at the end where, when the reward is the work itself, right, you can say it's another way that this is said is, you know, it's not the finish line, it's the race itself. It's not the end of the journey, it's the journey Um that's a tough thing to say to a sprinter yeah Right.

Speaker 1: 47:54

So you, you, you end up in that headspace where you have I find and this is where I'm curious if this was it has also been your experience. The further you go down that road, the more moments of lucidity start to happen. Like for me very recently it's been. My dad is in his seventies and, holy crap, I can't believe that I have a life, that I can go get lunch with him at 11 AM on a Tuesday. Yeah, you know and. I just sit there at that lunch.

Speaker 2: 48:22

I'm like there's no way, but I would never have never been able to do it with the life that you were living before.

Speaker 1: 48:29

Exactly, I would have been at the hospital or I would have been. You know, there's a whole bunch of other stuff, so I don't know exactly where that takes your headspace, but I know it's going to be, you know, a great place and that is exactly what kind of happened, right.

Speaker 2: 48:43

So, like I said, I had this layoff, I took some time and then what I found was, as I was starting to build this business and it was good to do it because I'll be also transparent Lucidity comes and goes. There are many a day where I'm like, oh my God, what am I doing? I got all these degrees, I did all the things. How did I get off the path of the thing? That was the path, because you see the path, it's always right over there. You can look at it and be like, but that looks so easy. But was I happy doing it? And I think, as you have those moments, you do have those affirming moments. The moment of my friend is having a tough time. I can just go over for lunch. She needs help cleaning out a closet, I'm going to go do that, or so-and-so is going through a killer breakup in a different city. I got the cash money. Get on this plane and come help out. Right, and not just like, hey, I'm going to swoop in and help. It's also.

Speaker 2: 49:35

I took a blanket out to a park in the summer and read a book for an afternoon in the sunshine.

Speaker 2: 49:44

There was nothing in that book other than things to help me start to think through how I want to approach leadership, how I want to approach these sorts of conversations, but I was interested in it. It was a beautiful day and I would have never been able to just pick up my laptop, sit there and type, do in that stuff and be in calls all day long, no matter how remote my work was, calls all day long, no matter how remote my work was. That kind of moment gives you those pieces and you should take pictures of it. When they do happen, goodness, if you can do it, you'll look back at them and be like, oh wow, I actually be out here living a life. But when those moments happen, they're valuable. They're little stars, almost in the constellation of your experience, and the more of those stars you see, the brighter the sky is. To your point, you start off with pretty narrow face downward pathing, and as you look up there's a lot more out there. Someone is tilting me like a pig slowly to see the sky.

Speaker 1: 50:49

Yeah, I've had it conveyed to me there's another indie member named Miles Anthony Smith that was in my original A-team group. Fantastic guy, he's been a great mentor to me over. I mean, he's talked me off of like quitting the quitting ledge multiple times, right, like I call him morose, like fresh sobbing in my truck Like what am I doing? We just lost this deal, I'm not gonna be able to make payroll, like why did I decide to hire people?

Speaker 1: 51:12

This shit's crazy, um and and he and he kind of said you know, and I've always thought this is so beautiful that the start of the journey is like staring up at the, at the ceiling, and it's just a black piece of construction paper, right, and that's the night sky at that point, and the more you continue to go, the somebody is poking holes in that construction paper and light starts to shine through and before you know it you have an entire sky full of stars, because all of those moments kind of collect and you're able to then look up and be like whoa this is wild, but when, when you're looking up and at first all you see is the dark sky, it could be super intimidating.

Speaker 2: 51:56

It's okay for it to be terrifying. You got to lean into that and I guess we kind of got a little philosophical as we kind of wrap this conversation up. But I would say this it's okay not to know, it's okay not to know, and I think, as you become a professional, it's really hard for people to sit in the not knowing. The best ideas came from people not knowing the thing. Yep, you name it Jazz, the electric light Cars. I don't know, but we need to do something and I don't know what it is, but I think we'll figure it out, bits and pieces and places and it comes together. So, if you have planned your own safety, if you have planned your own finances, if you plan what you're going to hope to do, at least in terms of keeping the lights on, keeping fed and making sure that you, you know you're not out on the streets take the human, the human time to think through what would bring you joy and what the stars could be, because you only have so many hours in this life.

Speaker 1: 53:08

I love it. I love it, man. Oh, I'm so upset that we're at the hour. Do you want to hang out again next month? I'd love for people to be able to connect with you. You know, if they're listening to this and they resonate with your approach to life and, you know, think, hey, we're struggling with HR, we're struggling with you know. Well, actually, like you said, there's things that you do and don't do. So what are the things that you're actively looking to help people with? And then, how can people get in touch with you?

Speaker 2: 53:46

Absolutely so. My little business is called Ziegler Consulting Super jazzy, and by that I mean my last name and consulting. Like I said, better to start, I primarily focus on learning, development, hr strategy, org development and culture. That's really where my sweet start is. So everything underneath that umbrella of talent management, everything underneath that umbrella of talent management, what is not really my specialty? I know enough to be dangerous, but not enough to love it Benefits, compensation and really that deep like tactical finance work that is a part of the HR experience Survey work. I love sentiment work. I love determining how much your people get paid. Maybe not. Please do feel free to reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn. I do have a page there. That's the other thing. You always have to have a webpage to start off with. You could just make a business page. You can reach out to me there or connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm Grace Ziegler. I've got a big smile, yon. This has been so much fun.

Speaker 1: 54:49

Thank for having me. You're super welcome. Yeah, thanks for taking the time on a friday afternoon, you know to come and hang out over lunch.

Speaker 2: 54:56

So why not? I think it's been a blast and, like I said, just I I hope that people take from this that they try, because the worst that happens is you might stumble a bit and frankly, you're doing that every day at work might as well make it on your own terms right, and with that, um, I've got.

Speaker 1: 55:13

I mean, there's so many things that I could add, but I won't add anything to this we, we'll be out here.

Speaker 2: 55:19

Philosophically, I'll just be.

Speaker 1: 55:21

I'll call kia up, be like brad oh my god, maybe you should do that, that would have a.

Speaker 2: 55:28

You should have a panel for all, all of us, we, we, we lay down some hard truth.

Speaker 1: 55:31

Oh my gosh. You just gave me an idea for an in-between cohort event that we might have to pull that off. That would be sick. If I could moderate that panel, I would be so down.

Speaker 2: 55:43

We would have so much fun.

Speaker 1: 55:44

All right pay attention to the Indy. If you haven't subscribed to the Indy Collective newsletter and that of an event like that sounds like something that you would be interested in make sure that you subscribe to the Indie Collective newsletter. And if you also have not clicked the little bell or subscribe to the podcast, make sure that you do that as well. I consistently see our listening numbers going up, but not as much so on the subscriber side, so I know that there's there's some of you out there that are listening on a regular basis and have not clicked that little button. What that does for us is it helps boost our podcast inside of the algorithm and everything like that. So rate it, follow it, subscribe to it. It really helps us out as far as getting the message out to the broader audience. So until next time. This has been another episode of the Modern Independent.